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Remember the Oscar winning documentary of the 1974 heavyweight championship bout in Zaire between champion George Foreman and underdog challenger Muhammad Ali? When We Were Kings was the story of the Rumble in the Jungle. Soul Power is more like the Heat of the Beat.

During the AFI DALLAS International Film Festival, I had the fortunate opportunity to interview Jeffrey Levy-Hinte, director of the powerful new documentary, Soul Power. Here’s a transcript of our talk -

PopSyndicate: Good morning Jeffrey. When I first saw this film, I knew very little about it. Which can be a very good thing – no preconceived notions – no humorous or momentous lines divulged. My husband and I used to go to the Fillmore East regularly so this film really spoke to me.  But honestly, I remember the hoopla over the fight – but not the concert associated with it.

Jeffrey Levy-Hinte: The concert was not really promoted. The fight was promoted globally and the notion of the fight was that people would watch on uncaptioned TV live and everyone was anticipating the outcome. The concert was conceived to go with the fight, but it was always planned to make a film and albums and to release them next year or the year after. They managed to get everyone there and film it and record it, but then everything fell apart. The financier, the person backing the finance company passed away under mysterious circumstances – in a plane crash – his name was Stephen Talbot and he was the minister of finance for Liberia. His brother was the Prime Minister, so it gives you some sense of where the money actually came from. So this is a very, sort of what you would think actually – very convoluted and probably nobody else would have been crazy enough to back it because I think, even if it worked out ideally, the finances would have been difficult. They spent a couple of million dollars to film this movie.

PS: And in 1974, that was

PS & JLH (together): Real money! (We laugh!)

JLH: Although I’m looking at what people got paid even. $100 day for a DP (director of photography) plus travel time and all sorts of other benefits. They spent real money and they did a very elaborate production, but they weren’t able to finish it and then they were lawsuits. Leon Gast, who was the director on the ground and also the director of When We Were Kings, he ended up owning the footage, basically to repay him from the money that was owed to him. And then him and his partner – David Sonenberg worked for many years to create a film and they had all these different ideas and what emerged from that was When We Were Kings and they kinda put it back in the vault. In some way what made When We Were Kings possible, was the decision to say we’re going to concentrate on the fight because for the twenty years before, the fight and the concert, they were trying to do both and it was too ungainly. What’s the climax of the film? What’s the end of the film? Just basic questions. They were related, but they weren’t related narratively or filmacally, at least not in a way that was possible, so because of when When We Were Kings was made, it kind gave me the space to say, “Okay, now I don’t have to think about the fight, there‘s a couple of lines, it’s in the background, Muhammad Ali is there, but it’s really about the concert and how it happened and what it meant to people. So I was extremely happy that nobody got to make it before, or I wouldn’t be here!

PS: So let me get the timeline right – the concert, When We Were Kings was made in 1974 – no, the fight was in 1974.

JLH: The concert was in September of ‘74, the fight, I believe was in October or November of ‘74. In 1995 we edited When We Were Kings and it was released the year after in ‘96.

PS: And you were the editor?

JLH: Yes.

PS: And that’s when the light bulb went off in your head and you said, “Wow! I have all this footage……”

JLH: Yeah, but I was much younger and inexperienced and I really didn’t know much about anything and I had the sense that, there’s something called the DVD and I didn’t even have a DVD player at the time. Wouldn’t this be great? It’s twelve hours of concert – let’s do some DVD’s. I eventually called some people, but I didn’t know what I was doing and I wasn’t able to get anything together. And it kind of went away and every couple of years I talked to David Sonenberg, who was the producer and I’d say, “What about this?” and he’d say, “Sure, see what you can do.” But I didn’t real have the wherewithal to be honest and I always got busy doing things that were more pressing.

PS: To earn a living…..

JLH: Exactly! And you know, there are those projects where there’s a bunch of people where associated with that are always wrangling for position and then there are projects like these that nobody was making me do anything. It would be purely my wherewithal. So what happened was, James Brown passed away, as I recall (and I should really fact check this), the end of 2005, and it was around Christmas – so maybe the first business day of 2006, I called David Sonenberg and I said, “We have to make this movie, this is crazy! To allow this footage to be locked away, only a very few people know about it – it’s just unconscionable.” So he said, “Great! Do whatever you want.” And he supported me completely, but he said he’d have to find the money and I’d have to make it happen. At that time, fortunately I was in a position where I just kind of just finance it as I went along with my company, so I didn’t have to go out and find financing. I had one editor. Needless to say, the pitch – I’m going to make a vérité documentary, 1974 – “Are you going to do new interviews? No. Are you going to update it in any way? No. Forget it.”

PS: You’re an editor yourself, why didn’t you edit it yourself?

JHL: It’s twofold. One is that I didn’t have the time because I had to do these other projects. I had in my mind, “Wouldn’t it be great to edit it?” Complete fantasy, because to edit you just need to have unadulterated, kind of sit there day in and day out. And the second thing is, I still think I have very strong editorial instincts, but I hadn’t been doing it for ten years – I went on to produce – it’s like playing a musical instrument, when you’re young and then you pick it up again and say, “I used to be able to do this but my intonation is off and I can’t quite hit those notes.” But I did jump on it very once in awhile, much to the consternation of my editor.

PS: Why did you make the decision not to shoot any new material? Let’s say an update from Bill Withers – he’s still alive, isn’t he?

JLH:   He is still alive, in fact there’s a new film about him playing at SXSW called Still Bill about him. But the answer is twofold. One is a practical and pedestrian answer – I really didn’t have the resources to do it. But I’m happy that I didn’t have the resources to do it.

PS: It totally stands on its own.

JLH: I appreciate that! But two is a deeper thing. As soon as I started to really get into it, I realized the one opportunity that the footage gave me was to really kind of have this immersive experience, “What would it have been like to have been there with these people?”  What would it have been like to attend this concert?” It’s not so much about the information and the facts, although there are elements of that, it’s really about the experience and about the enjoyment of the music and the kind of feeling of being with these people and you know while interviews could have worked with that, I think often times, it cut against that. And kind of an extension of that, once you open it up to a retrospective element, then you kind of invite the notion that you have to answer all these questions. Even in When We Were Kings we ended with a coda, what happened to Ali, we did that with Norman Mailer and also with his biographer – but it’s not the most dynamic part of the film. It’s like you do it as quickly as you can, just to do enough and then you leave it, because it’s kind of obligatory – but then we had to do it because we were doing interviews. And given there were so many people how would you? Many people were deceased. I think it would be a different film. It could also be a very good film, but I didn’t.

PS: So this is your directorial debut.

JLH: Yes. A debutante!

PS: We’re in Dallas – we’re very familiar with debs! Mostly, you’ve been producing, if you had your choice from now on – which you may very well have – which do you prefer?

JHL: Directing is ……how do I say this politely?

PS: I’m originally from the Bronx – you don’t have to be polite for my sake.

JHL: I loved all the directors I’ve worked with, but I find that directing is very gratifying in a sense that you really can thoroughly engage and thoroughly insert yourself. I tried to give that room to the directors I work with, so even when I have opinions, I take pains to modulate that and frankly, it’s the fun part – the directing! Producing is lousy, for the most part.

PS: I hear ya. I’ve produced as well and whole heartedly agree with you. The funny thing is the film I produced was about salsa dancing and we interviewed Celia Cruz for our doc.

JHL: (he laughs!) That’s very cool!

PS: I found it interesting that not all the musicians were of purely African descent. Celia Cruz for example. She had Afro-Cuban roots, which I imagine is why she was included.

JHL: The connection was more about the music. Ray Barretto made a connection that was so strong! He plays the conga drums. Just the notion – the form of communicating with rhythm. It was much easier for the audience to connect with Fania All-Stars, as opposed to the Spinners. The Spinners they (the African audience) enjoyed I think.

PS: But it was more of an American sound.

HJL: It was more quizzical. It was like, “This is interesting”, but with like Fania All-Stars, the audience was totally lost in it.

PS: It was interesting to see the crowd and their rhythmic movement as opposed to American audiences.

JHL: Oh yeah!

PS: Miriam Makeba was just fantastic – I’ve never seen her in concert.

JHL: Just beautiful!

PS: Her stage presence in that outfit – the whole nine yards. Her hairdo!

JHL: She just exudes life and vitality, so powerful!

PS: How much of the raw footage was music?

JHL: We had twelve hours of music and 125 hours of footage.

PS: I imagine some of it touched on politics…..

JHL: That’s a question that’s been raised – not much actually – Muhammad Ali touches on civil rights and liberation.

PS: Black Power movement?

JHL: Yes, Black Power movement. But there wasn’t much.

PS: Are you going to release a DVD version with more music footage?

JHL: We’re hoping to – but I have to clear that music. And it’s clearable; it’s just money at this point. There’s a rendition of Try Me by James Brown which is amazing! There’s a rehearsal by Miriam Makeba, I don’t know what song she’s singing, but it’s shot by Maysles and wonderful! There’s also a rehearsal by Fania All-Stars, the sound is a little goofy, but if I can figure out how to get around that. They’re doing Guantanamera  -  it’s just so great because there’s so right on, but at the same time it’s so casual. They’re such classical musicians, they can be casual, and she’s standing there and she clicks (he makes the sound) into it and I just love the way she sings and performs. Also, you can see it in the background of the movie, Sister Sledge, when you get the press notes, you’ll see them listed, Sister Sledege is in the movie, but they don’t do a performance. The Pointer Sisters performance is mind blowing! Very cool! Sister Sledge was very young at the time and they weren’t doing their own music at the time – this was before they had the disco hits which was basically in the late 70’s. 

PS: What a personality! But she was soooo young.

JHL: She was around 15. I want to include one of their performances. Their musical choices were odd and also in the middle of their set, the sound cut off because the power went out. The problem is, when the power went out, these lights stayed on and it’s not dramatic or anything and actually the sound went out in the stadium, but not on the recording because they had a separate power supply. So it kinda just went flat. You didn’t really feel it. But that would be great because they’re obsessed with the electricity and getting it together and it literally happened, it all crashed down on them.

PS: I wonder, back in those days – and I think I’m correct in saying that in those days they didn’t have a “set” list.

JHL: No, they didn’t use a “play” list. One reason they could do that is that they were all such great musicians. They could get out there and perform and it didn’t need to be so locked in and rigid. You have that now, but not in those major venues, but in these smaller clubs. All those guys played so many dates. James Brown used to play like 200 dates a year, or something ridiculous like that.

PS: I’ve seen B.B. King tons of times. He comes through Dallas a lot.

JHL: He never stops! That was the way with all those musicians. They just never stop. And they had the best musicians playing with them as well. They were able to be much more spontaneous as well. The Crusaders is kind of a jazz fusion band, I think they may be from Texas. Joe Sample – I should look into that. He’s still around.

PS: What’s next for Jeffrey Levy-Hinte? 

JHL: I’m not sure. I’m trying to get a new feature film out with Lisa Cholodenko who did Laurel Canyon. But we’re having financing issues. There are two other documentaries I’m finishing up. Other then that I’m not sure. I wanna give myself some room to (he hesitates)……..

PS: To discover some other great footage lying around somewhere?

JHL: Exactly! Well now a couple of people have approached me saying, “Remember this concert that was shot and nobody ever did anything with it”? This really happened – things were shot, but never really worked out.

PS: I just have one more question; I noticed a special “Special Thanks” to you on the credits of the film The Station Agent. What did you do to merit that?

JHL: My producing partner, Mary Jane Skalski produced that movie. At the time she worked for me, so I think she felt obligated to mention me.

PS: It seems like this project continues to keep you busy. The film has been shown in  
Toronto, Berlin, SXSW…….

JHL: …..and AFI, San Francisco International and then LA and SilverDocs.  Then it opens this summer.

PS: I’m thrilled that it’s getting out there and I think it’ll do great - certainly my generation will flock to it. But it’ll be embraced by a varied audience.

JHL: That’s the interesting thing about James Brown and B.B. King, they cross so many generations!  I think you’re right. I think it will start with people who knew about us and where young when this was going on and then hopefully it will reverberate down to others.

PS: Thank you very much Jeffrey.

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